There appears to be some confusion amongst some of the regular chatters here about some warnings about pushing some boundaries of the rules resulting in permanent bans. Yes we did have a moderators only chat about some of the consistent boundary pushing, some of the people who have been involved lately, and the fact that anyone who pushes limits consistently should be permanent banned from using the chat rooms here.
It would be easy to label just about any conversation that someone did not like as generally fucking annoying or GFA – and it is in the rules that being GFA can get you banned. This could and does encompass all kinds of things, but this rule was created when we had a number of people who cam to the chat for no other reason than to troll the rooms, and annoy people for the lulz. This rule was often invoked quite often when we had a lot of visitors from Asia who simply would not listen, or could not understand some basic etiquette that we as a community suggested time and time again that they follow.
The recent warnings were not about those people who come to the room and only annoy people, instead these warnings are intended for those who know the rules and follow them most of the time.
Some have asked us to pinpoint the exact things in which are considered pushing the boundaries. This is not so easy to put down in orange and black. I could go through some chat log examples to drum up specifics, but let’s just say that when a few people start pushing some limits they often pull other people into doing the same. When the others start following the examples of the regs who push the limits of certain things, the newer folks will tend to cross over some lines, and then we get situations where we have to start deciding, well person A posted only two links, and person B posted 3, then person C posted 7 links – so person C should be banned, but then there is confusion with person C – as all they did was the same thing that others were doing.
This is not just about posting links, it’s about other things as well – but I think you can see the point. Some people make it hard not only for the moderators to keep everyone on the same people, but they make it hard for the newer visitors to understand what is cool here and what is not.
In the past I have gotten into long debates with some users who refused to use the block button, and instead were quite happy to engage others with rude or outright mean remarks, calling pmer’s out by name – which often led to defensive behavior in the others, and it became not only a way to be snarky, but it became a method of getting other people banned. That debate still lingers in the older comments around here somewhere, and it’s one of the things that led me to create the challenge to the regs – in which I tried to explain that even discussions that were not technically against were out of place in the main lobby.
I tried to explain that there is no need for a few people to take over the lobby with the way they think they should handle discussions only to confuse and ruin things for the other visitors. I challenged people to think more about how other people would perceive what they were typing in the chat room before they hit the enter button. I suggested that if they really wanted to engage in comments that would likely turn into a back and forth bitch fest, that they could move those discussions to a side room, but keep it out of the lobby.
I think today’s regular chatters would be wise to read the challenge to the regs.
It isn’t always about the exact rule, it isn’t always about a certain number of links or caps, sometimes it’s more about the other people in the room and how they see things. You and your group of friends may completely understand when you make statements like ‘blah blah’ – but the other people in the lobby may read things in a different way, and think that non stop cut downs is the only banter that gets attention – this will do nothing but encourage idiots to jump in that have no business getting into such discussions, and at the same time encourage those who would join in some good conversations to leave.
Now some of the confusion, questions, and suggestions from the users
At least one user has said “I was told BY A MODERATOR that I should NOT post on the mod complaints page” and others have “heard” similar things. As I replied here:
I could understand one of the moderators saying that questioning the rules, or those who are trying to educate about and enforce them in the main rooms of the chat is not allowed. I think some of our users have taken statements about that and taking that to mean that airing any issues anywhere could mean some kind of revenge by mods or something. I hope it is understood by everyone that it has always been in the rules that we do not want or allow questioning of the rules or hounding the mods about policies / procedures in the main rooms of the chat.
I know it may seem faster and easier to discuss these things there, but the conversations will get more focus when they are made in the comments in the blog section than in the chat, and it also keeps the drama of such off of everyone else’s screen. I know some issues may seem important to the half dozen or so other people who are engaged in the main room, but taking the questions, comments and complaints to these pages (or my email which is also posted on the mod complaints page) – is a much better way to handle those things.
“the mod complaint page was a topic of discussion in the moderator meeting” – this is true, and I think I clarified to those there that the mod complaints page is exactly the right place for people to air grievances about the mods, the site policies, etc. Of course that page has public comments where others can read to consider things, add in to the conversation, or ignore. The page also has methods to provide information privately directly to me. There should not be any kind of retribution for stating something about one of the mods there.
Other users have offered some suggestions such as the suggestions by ripper here.
Now some people are thinking or saying that we are holding the regs to a higher standard – which I would love to do, and I think it would be reasonable to expect this, however this is really more like taking an extra couple of steps for people we care for, not wanting to just ban when others might be. Well then, that is not really fair is it? That is saying that regs can get away with shit that new users can’t – no this place certainly does not work like that either.
There are some differences that I tried to point out – a (usually new) user who comes in, says some things that should not be in the lobby, but may perhaps be allowed in a different room – they may get warned, or kicked to the rules page – that same user then uses caps a few times, then starts spouting off religious stuff, some politics, some hate speech – whatever – but they did not add anything positive to any conversation – they might be banned on their first visit.
The difference with the regs is not that anyone has any friendships (or ill will) from / with any moderator, it’s that some of the regs are quite capable of following the rules most of the time, and they can add positive things to the chat rooms, but sometimes things start slipping. It’s easy to find yourself typing away with four friends in the chat and forget that there are 50 other people getting your conversation across their screen. It’s easy to forget that even though you and your three close friends know when you are being sarcastic or when you are playing… you know what I mean. We’ve all done it. We’ve all said some things that others are going to take a different way than we intended.
Some of us seem to do a bit more of that than others. Hey if you really want to talk about some things that don’t belong in the lobby, take it pm, or make a group snarky room.
These warnings are because we want to keep all the regs here, and we want new visitors to join us and we want everyone to get along, have some fun and maybe get some cyber sex in between making some new friends. Is that too much to ask? Eh, I imagine at least some of the regs have experienced all that at least once here right? So let’s keep it cool in the lobby, let’s not start to set bad examples, let’s move certain things to other rooms, let’s make this place the way it should be.
That reminds me, I have asked the community to give me a number, how many links is too many links?
I always ask for feedback about the rules, some of the new upcoming rules changes (Aug 2013), and ask for feedback about the moderators, and everything else around here. We have decided to give some of the regs some feedback, and I am sorry that some are taking it the wrong way; it’s more about loving you than trying to berate you I assure you.
I will be a bit more serious on this topic. If rules are to be followed, then it should apply to all, regardless of being a reg or mod. I would also like to say this to the mods. Acting as if your Dirty Harry will always GFA someone.Perhaps a more calm approach to a situation would suffice, rather than saying such idiotic things as you will fly out of here, showing your intent in Caps or sticking your nose in another mods affairs, when they have it under control, etc etc. Not one person is the same, to assume so would be unwise. I have seen Angelips, Julia use this manner, and it works more often than not. Some people on here have issues, be it physical or more profound, this must be taken into account. I do agree that some just don’t get it, so in that case they should accept what comes their way.
For the regs I’ve seen them egg on a mod to kick a person, with comments such as the kick is up it’s good, polishes the boot and so on. So don’t bitch if the kick happens to be you, after all you enjoyed it when others were kicked, why should you be any different. I have also seen regs tell newbies what isn’t allowed, which is commendable of them. Yes there are some who kiss ass, to enjoy watching someone get kicked, I guess it’s the only thrill they get that particular night. Others just enjoy what the site offers, they enjoy the banter and friendship.
Final note, seriously how old is everyone here, how long will this challenge last?. If some have power use it as prescribed by Nash. Not for personal gain, if so the regs should monitor this and forward it to Nash. Let’s not be vindictive here both regs and mods should have just cause and proof. I would think Nash is a honest and fair man, and would take away one’s power if they are abusing it. I know you are trying your best fixing this Nash, I support you, but I also don’t pull any punches. You do have a issue here, you have a fun site, would be a shame to see it fall apart, because of a few Dirty Harry’s and some who just can’t follow the rules. As a wise man once said, there is more power in the masses, than in any one person. History shows this to be true to those who abuse it. Sorry if I didn’t kiss anyone’s ass, it’s just isn’t my style.
Regards
CM
I appreciate your thoughts CM, and yes “I would think Nash is a honest and fair man, and would take away one’s power if they are abusing it.” – I do my best to be fair with everyone, old time regular users, new users, and mods alike. I have certainly removed several mods over the years, and have had to step in and make similar tough decisions with some of the regs over the years as well.
I am not in the chat enough to see everything, but my inbox is always open.
Hey just thought I’d leave a comment to say yep, read and noted. I usually DO read all the blog posts in the time I have been here and don’t really comment. Instead, just I mainly try to take them in and apply feedback, advice where possible.
But in this case, regarding this post as well as the Regs Challenge, I felt the blog post of particular relevance. So I just wanted to drop a comment to show that you are reaching the audience you are most likely aiming for with this post Nash and that people are taking the comments on board. The effort that goes into it is appreciated.
Cheers,
Lils
All I will say is this, while all of you were responding back and forth, there is something I’m sure you are missing. Your watches. Heads out to the pawn shop and leaves a thank you note to you all. Keep smiling.
Signed
CM
I was going to make a comment as to all the goings on but I’m sorry, I forgot what I was going to say! I think I am the “oldest Golden Girl” therefore I am forgetful 🙂
Seriously, I think we all know that each and everyone of us, regs & mods included, have room for improvement. I know that I do… have I made mistakes? YES… Am I proud of that? YES … that only proves I am human. I try to take my mistakes and learn from them. I, myself have let slight imperfections slide and I hate to see it come to the point that EVERYTHING we say has to be guarded. I do not have a problem with caps, I can understand why it is in the rules but yes, sometimes I let it ride. As for a person repeating the same line, is it annoying as hell, yes … does it bother me .. no, BUT it is against the rules. I had to change my way of thinking to adhere to some of the rules and try seeing different angles not just my way of thinking. I am rambling but my point is we have rules, we have all read them as mods and some of you as regs have as well. We (the mods) can probably give each other a challenge and come up with different answers to how we would handle the situation – ALL WE NEED IS COMMON SENSE!!!
We are all living in a different world than we were just a couple of years ago and I myself believe that we carry our stress into the chat room whereas we should kick it off with our boots at the door and ALL try to enjoy chat and make it what it used to be.
If ANYONE, a reg or mod has an issue to discuss with me I welcome a post on the mod page and I will respond. Like I stated earlier, I make mistakes but I enjoy modding and hopefully I make a positive difference in someones day 🙂
Couldn’t agree more angellips. We all do make mistakes, it happens. Also, you have to wonder how many even regulars have actually read the rules in their entirety. I’m not pointing any fingers here but just in general I get the feeling there are more than a few that haven’t even looked at the rules page. While of course, to an extent that’s understandable with a new person, why a regular hasn’t done so is beyond me. Realistically the rules a re fairly basic, easy to follow and just plain common sense. Finally, I’ll leave it at this. Let’s try to keep this from getting personal, not only do the mods have a sucky often thankless unpaid job but remember we’re here to have fun and you’re taking away from that when you start bashing eachother.
This is an interesting read to say the least and there are a number of issues from both sides. Having been on both sides and now away I hope my comments are accepted as totally unbias with an intention to just help how this site is used. First off… throw this ‘challenge’ thing out the window… what it suggests is that the people challenged are not capable of something. I would rather see the term ‘ agreement’ or ‘understanding’ far less combative terms. So let me start with the mods since this is born from the Mod Complaint section. People you need to practice ABSOLUTE consistency in your comments… warnings … bans etc… it should not matter who it is (INCLUDING other Mods) if you want to be respected, which is the basis for any authoritative position, you need to operate in a manner that earns that respect (and you all know I am VERY high on respect). If someone breaks the rules and you KNOW they know give them that 10 minute time out hopefully they will come back a little wiser. If that person is your partner on here it doesn’t matter … if they are new then give them one warning and they are gone. If its a borderline or gray area infraction like GFA give the one warning and then the boot. Lots of people will initially be upset but in the end things will stabalize and everyone will understand that the rules are there to keep order and will be enforced. Also, do not use the tools you are given as a toy…every time you give someone a warning or a freeze or even a kick as a joke or in fun it weakens the position of other Mods who are trying to do a good job. Another suggestion is the if there are already 2 mods in a room there is NO need for other mods to turn on their authority if you see an infraction just let one of the active mods know (they are quite capable of dealing with it) a sea of Red in the participants list does not make for an environment of trust it just makes more fodder for negative remarks. Lastly you talk of people not stepping up or wanting to be mods… this appears to me a self fulling prophecy you spend a huge amount of time on these blogs and on the site itself moaning about how hard it is to be a mod and how no one would like it. I agree it is a burden but any position of responsibility has its burdens but its not difficult especially if you focus more on consistency and earning respect. The real difficult job is Nash’s trying to find people with the internal strength that can properly execute the mod function and use it as a vehicle to help the room flow smoothly not as a position of elite status. I was a mod and never found it to be difficult or painful. I has issues with some decissions Nash made (even though those choices may well have been merited ) and so I stopped being a mod… I am sure other mods or users may have had issues with me which is likely why I was never asked back LOL.
Ok…. now its time to focus on the ‘regs’… this is short and sweet… guys, you know the rules… every time you abuse those rules and you know you do (for example every time you reference sthingy or some other messenger by code you are knowingly mentioning something that is not allowed by site rules) you are not only risking being kicked but more importantly you are damaging the reputation of the site, yourselves and the mods. You do it knowingly and yet complain when you get called out for it. If you don’t want to get kicked then follow the rules. If you have an issue with a rule use this site to bring it to Nash’s attention… if you need to talk to a mod about it do it in private chat not in the lobby. The ganging tendencies of the lobby rarely end in a positive solution. Lets all focus on dealing with these issues with an intent to find workable solutions not (as someone mentioned earlier) as a ‘He said She said’ contest. OK… I think I have rambled on long enough. I will check back in if anyone cares to comment on what I said. Nash there are some good potential mods out there… its unfortunate that they have not been encourage to come forward… I know you really care about the success of the site, I hope my comments are taken as they were intended, constructive criticism not attacks on any individual.
Well said…. there is a lot of truth and thought in what you just posted. We all ahve to work for the betterment of this site… Mods and Users alike.
Thank you, Mr Magic.
I have not commented on this blog yet. But I would like to say, that respect should be a two-way road. We can’t just ask the users to respect the moderators. The moderators should respect the users as well.
And respect does not demand agreement. Likewise tolerance does not necessitate acceptance.
It also does not hurt to be polite to each other. A nice tone among the participants on the site can be so helpful.
I will admit that some situations make it very difficult to stay calm or polite. But it’s not hard to make decisions, once you know what your values are.
I have said it before and I am saying it again: Everyone of us is visiting this chatsite for a special reason. Which makes all of us special in a way. Some more, some less, but certainly special.
This site has become special to so many of us.
Let’s not ruin this.
Play by the rules, respect each other and be fair, so we can all enjoy our precious time on the site.
We are ALL Chatizens
Well said my dear friend. The only other comment I would add is Respect is not a two way street in fact, not a street at all… you cannot control if someone respects you or not all you can control is how you carry yourself… you can only act in a respectful manner , treat others respectfully and hope that people respect you for it. Unfortunately on a site like this you will get those who have no respect for themselves are little for others. Lets not ‘expect’ something but all of us need to act in a way that reflects how we wanted to be treated ourselves.
Thanks for chiming in ripper magic..
interesting points..
“Also, do not use the tools you are given as a toy…every time you give someone a warning or a freeze or even a kick as a joke or in fun it weakens the position of other Mods who are trying to do a good job” – I myself have not seen enough of this to know that is goes on on a regular basis, we should add this to our moderator policies / guidelines..
“already 2 mods in a room there is NO need for other mods to turn on their authority if you see an infraction just let one of the active mods know (they are quite capable of dealing with it) a sea of Red in the participants list does not make for an environment of trust it just makes more fodder for negative remarks.” — This is another interesting point. We have never really established a good procedure for handing over the mod torch when others are around, it’s something we have talked about a bit here or there in mod meetings, as we have seen it become an issue sometimes with multiple people warning for the same thing, and I have other situation where one mod was typing when I did some kicking and I felt bad for them spending the typing time – so it is something that we can definitely do better. I doubt we’ll ever get it 100% perfect, but I definitely think we can do better with this issue somehow.
You said that it is not that hard to be a moderator, and that may be semi-true for a most of the situations, but I think it’s not fair to others who consider moderating to simply think it is easy.. I mean just becoming a moderator entails reading about 4 hours of extra rules – which in of itself is not easy per se… then depending on how much one decides to mod can change it from easy to hard.. then there is the tough situations in which you have a friend in a situation that needs moderating, or an enemy – these dual relationships get emotional taxing. On top of that I think all of the mods run into situations where they would do one thing if it was thier own web site, but then they are constrained to following the mod guidelines which make letting some things go very hard depending on the situation. Then there are times when a bunch of people run into some grey areas at the same time.. there are many times when it is not easy. So I can agree it is not hard most of the time, but that does not mean it is always easy.
Not sure why it’s thought that we do not encourage others to stand up and offer to help with the mod thing, I know there are many barriers to actually getting into the moderating, but on most pages of the chats I ask for people to visit the what it takes to be a moderator page if they are interested or know someone else who would make a good mod.. At some times of the day we are fine with the amount we have, but other times of the day we could use some modding I am sure..
I am sure every mod has at least one, and likely several ” issues with some decisions Nash made” – which makes the whole thing not easy as well.
I am glad we are having this discussion to bring about some changes and if nothing else some things for everyone to consider around here. A challenge, and agreement, some considerations.. whatever anyone wants to call it, I welcome the discussion and idea and viewpoints from all sides.
Hi Nash, your points are well taken, my comment on being a mod did not intent to reflect that the preamble to being a mod was easy I am sorry if that is how it is interpreted. But as Lady said ‘its not hard to make decisions once you know what your values are’. You have set the rules and guidelines for the site… some are open to interpretation and the mods will do the interpretation based on their own values and therefore the choices aren’t hard. Sure a user may complain about a ban based on a mods understanding and that is where you come in and provide the final judgement which you do so well.
As for encouraging new Mods… I don;t know why it happens either…like I said once you have become a mod you come into it with the understanding of the time commitment and the frustrations it involves… however I rarely saw (and perhaps never did… I am old … even older … perhaps not as golden… as you angellips LOL …and tend to forget) Mods saying you should become a mod… it is a very rewarding choice that allows you to give back to a site that (once again as Lady suggested… sorry for referencing you Lady but you are spot on) has given a lot to you for whatever reason. That is why I became a mod and I wasn’t disappointed.
Lastly, as to the decisions you make and not in agreement. I think you know the action I am referencing and as I said at the time it represented an action that I will never support and not something that I could say ‘ Oh well…I would have done it differently but I can see why he may have made that choice’. But enough said on that this is not the forum for that discussion.
Best of luck to everyone on the site. I hope you continue to get out of it what you were looking for and that you all consider giving back in whatever way you can.
As for the use of the tools as toys, yes please add this to the mod guidelines, although you have not seen this I think the simple fact that no one has challenged what I said would indicate that it does happen.
Awww BITE ME, Mr. M 😛
I’ve tried…you never did let me HAHAHA 😛
DAMN!! I thought I did!! See what a bad memory I have … LOL
If Biting was involved I think we both would have remembered LOL 😉
Magic, I see the point about “‘its not hard to make decisions once you know what your values are’.” – but I think that any would-be mods, or anyone thinking that modding is easy in general has not thought about how hard it is when if “your values are”.. not 100% congruent with the site policies.. in fact I think knowing your values in important aspect of making it easy to make decisions, yet those values do make some mods decide to choose to not mod any longer.. given that there are so many types of discussions permitted here, if your values put certain things above free speech, and then you are exposed to discussions that hit your gut and test your reaction to your values as opposed to what is allowed. I can agree that it can easy sometimes, especially if all of the rules and mod policies are fully accepted.. however I think for most mods there are some very difficult times in having hold back personal feelings and being forced to let some things go that most would not if they were going on inside their own pub or something..
I also think it can be easier if mods stick to just the lobby, or are modding when other mods are around.. I think it is easier for guys to mod in some ways, as the women tend to have more opportunity for personal interaction, and so modding tends to get in the way of general conversations more.. that’s not to say it’s always easier for men, I am just pointing out that there are a lot of differences among the different mods, the time zones they are in, etc.
So it can be easy, reading and understand pages of mod rules in of itself does not have to be considered hard, but I would not label that as easy. Dealing with dual relationships can be easy, and it can be hard – usually more so on a personal and emotional level. With so many other things, the tech involved, trying to catch hit and run spammers, small drama between users and such – all these things could be considered a breeze or taxing.. depends on the person and the situation..
I get what you are saying in your original point, and I agree with it on a mod level – it does not have to be hard (most of the time) – but I think it would not be fair to other users to simply shrug off that modding itself is easy. Portions of it can be, and some portions of it are certainly not for everyone. The emotional shocks are different for different people – some are well aware of a majority of the BS that goes on around the site when they decide they want to jump in, some are mainly aware of the lobby stuff and were not exposed to some of the more edge play things that can come up, and being asked to deal with those things in a professional manner that respects our policies is not easy for most, even if they know what their values are, and for some it’s a process that brings issues with those, whether they know it, or find out by having some things slapped on their screens.
Hi Nash, I am more than happy to take this discussion off line if you want. I found it interesting that you say it is likely harder on the female Mods as I would say, from what I saw when I use to be on the site, that they are doing a better job than the guys.. no idea why that is and of course its just my opinion. All I am is saying is, if you decide to become a Mod and enforce the rules that are black and white (including allowing topic discussions that you personally may feel offensive)… give some thought to understand the why before enforcing the grey area rules… be consistent… believe that what you are doing you are doing for the betterment of the site and not yourself… then you should be able to do a good job as a mod and not find the task so daunting. There were many times when I was modding that I experienced things that were distasteful but as long as they were within the rules or if I check pointed with the user to understand the intent, I would let it continue but perhaps that’s just me and the fact that I was still very new to the site and didn’t have those ‘personal’ connections that could get in the way.
Good luck with the site and I hope you continue to find good people to fill the Mod rolls… please make sure you continue to listen to your user community and don’t let the perceived difficulty of the mod’s job cloud your judgement in enforcing issues that users raise about mods.
Nash I am not trying to be negative here and I hope my comments are taken as intended. I enjoyed my time on the site and for the users that are still there I am hoping my suggestions will help everyone’s experience be a positive one. Those who know me know I only ever tried to help where I could.
Magic
Well said Magic – I’m really in agreement there, and have been with most of what you are saying. I just wanted to point out that as to where it can be easy and simple when you stick to the basics and only do a certain amount, it can be pretty hard too. I just did not want to give the impression that many already have – you get access, you get to decide who warn kick and ban – it’s easy… cuz it is not anywhere near that simple.. and it may appear that way to some who only see the end user side of things.. certainly some people will find it easier to put their personal ‘eww triggers’ on hold and to follow the site parameters than others. Might take some of these bits of discussion over to the what it takes to be a sex chat mod page – it may help others who would consider it, and or prepare a bit for some of what would be coming if they jumped into doing it.
We will certainly continue to listed to all the users.. the mods, the regs, the noobs, the people who came once and got banned.. I truly do listen to everyone. Over the years we have changed some rules for the site, at times we have changed the moderating policies as well. Sometimes we change our moderators, sometimes we just need to communicate more about why certain things happen and then there is a better understanding of what really did happen. We will keep being flexible, and open to other points of view, and change too.
The comment boxes are always open here, (site suggestions page, problems page, feedback page, complaints pages.. still thinking of adding a “questions” page) and my inbox is open (addy posted on the contact us and complaints page) for all here to send me info too. I read everything posted here every day, and many others do too. Always glad to hear thoughts from everyone.
Just a random comment passing by… Dont mind me. Btw, nice weather.
Seeing as I haven’t undone notifications from this blog, I thought I might add my opinion here…. I thought the point of banning me for LIFE without anything considered close to even a 6 hour ban, was to get rid of the drama I apparently caused..
Looks to me like there is even more drama than before I was removed.. haha
Seems it was more a way to get rid of a certain few users the mods didn’t like, rather than an actual solution to the so called problem.
(I know, I’ve been labelled as one of those “You who bash the mod’s behaviour”… so I figured, do unto others.. 😉 seeing as they can bash certain users and their behaviour)
Dear Mr. Mods,
We accept the fact that we had to sacrifice a whole Saturday in detention for whatever it was that we did wrong, what we did was wrong. But we think you’re crazy to make us write this essay telling you who we think we are, what do you care? You see us as you want to see us – in the simplest terms and the most convenient definitions. You see us as a brain, an athlete, a basket case, a princess, and a criminal. Correct? That’s the way we saw each other at seven o’clock this morning. We were brainwashed. But what we found out is that each one of us is a brain, and an athlete, and a basket case, a princess, and a criminal. Does that answer your question?
Sincerely yours,
The Breakfast Club
jess I don’t have any more examples to back up what you are saying! I think that a challenge to the mods is an excellent idea. I think that if regs are going to be held to a higher standard then the mods should exceed that standard as well as try harder to do their job as consistently as possible. Tex the FW Lent/Good Friday/Fat Tuesday discussion is an absolutely perfect example because while you probably would have let it slide I have no doubt, am 100% convinced, that if I’d had that exact conversation in front of a few of the mods I’d have been kicked. The point that jess and I are still trying to make is that not all mods are objective, there are a few that seem extremely inconsistent, they warn about flooding for questionable topics yet flood the lobby themselves when their friends are around, for example. I think that most regs are just fine with being held to a higher standard, we know the rules, we know the mods, we help the new users as much as possible, we bring them into our conversations and we, generally make the lobby semi entertaining. However, we are not ok with being used as examples when a mod feels they can justify a kick. You shouldn’t need to justify, most of us know when we deserve a time out. It’s when you have to go back and say “welllllllll, they did this and this and yesterday this happened and Fuck It they are a GFA” that we have a problem. Be consistent across the board, with warnings, with kicks, with your behavior as well. That’s all we want. Also, I’d like to point out that while the mod complaint board is a “safe place” and no retribution will be made against posters it does still reflect the mods. Your interactions here should be professional sounding as well, because other readers do read this and form opinions too. Some of you come across very professional sounding and honestly, I appreciate that. Others, well, they come across as less professional, more hot headed and to be perfectly honest they seem like that kid in middle school that just didn’t know when to stop talking! (we all know, or were that kid). At any rate, I hope this all leads to something positive because honestly the lobby is shit lately and I’d like to see people get back to having fun.
Rant on….
I agree mostly. BUT, I will challenge the regs to the VERY SAME STANDARD. Which damned few want to take on. It seems that everyone loves the rules until it comes to them following the rules. I am getting weary of this argument and everyone’s behavior over this topic. NO ONE wants to accept responsibility for their behavior. Skip is a perfect example. He admits to rule violations in HIS OWN post on the kick/banned page. But, as soon as I comment, he goes on the attack that I am attacking him in the blog. Lets ALL (me included) GROW THE FUCK UP. And, if you are going to throw around accusations of certain behaviors, then back it up when asked. I am fed up with everyone saying “so and so said such and such” and then refusing to fess up about who so and so is. From now on, IMO, no back up, don’t bother me.
Am I frustrated? Yes, I am. None of you who love to bash the mods want to be step up and do the job. But, you all sure love to point out shortcomings of the mods yet refuse to accept your own.
Rant off
Since I feel like I’m part of the “you who love to bash the mods” in this particular instance since I’ve pointed out the shortcomings of SOME mods so I’m going to respond. What job do you want me to do? What information would you like? I’m pretty sure, no I’m positive, I’ve had some very honest conversations with several mods. So lets have it, I’ll be the guinea pig reg… what do I do wrong, what do you want me to do differently? Be specific and don’t hold back, bring on the examples, I’m a big girl and I can take it.
Well, don’t you think highly of yourself? You were not even remotely on my mind. But, I will respond in one specific issue. I know you did not CLEARLY state this in your posts. But, it was implied. So, if you ever expect me to provide you with any feedback or reasons why I kick, warn, or ban a user, you will be disappointed. When I can AND I feel up to it, I will answer questions about my moderating. But, I want to make it clear, I have zero expectations that this is expected behavior on my part to any user. And, yes, this is from the whole YCH post thread thing. What I cannot understand it that you clearly stated to me that you were PMing YCH to chill out when he was kicked. Why did you get so upset? If he was not doing anything wrong, why were you PMing him to chill out? Many nights the mods are up to their ass in dealing with far more things than any user will ever understand and yet, we are now hung out to dry when a problem user is kicked?
First of all, I answered your rant I asked what I did wrong and what I could do differently. The mod complaint board is off limits since it is a forum of free speech. I’m asking about the lobby. Second, I didn’t say I was pming YCH at the time he was kicked. I said that I pmed him on a seperate issue and told him why he would be kicked. I had no idea he was going to get kicked the second time so why would I have pmed him? Especially, since it’s been stated a million times that he was kicked due to “behind the scenes issues”. And third, this wasn’t about asking about a problem user or anyone getting kicked. You said no one wants to step up and take responsibility that all we want to do is bash the mods so I did that, I asked what I do wrong and how to fix it. I asked how I can do better. Since I “bashed” the mods I felt I might as well give you a shot at me, didn’t have a high opinion of myself just tired of the “us against them” attitude. As a reg what can I do better, specifically? I’m not asking what we all can do better I’m asking what I can do. You want someone to step up, here I am…
“And, if you are going to throw around accusations of certain behaviors, then back it up when asked. I am fed up with everyone saying “so and so said such and such” and then refusing to fess up about who so and so is. From now on, IMO, no back up, don’t bother me”…..I certainly hope that was not directed at me because I do respectfully refuse to tell you which mod made the comments that I posted earlier. I feel that this moderator was giving me his/her honest opinion in a confidential setting, and I won’t throw him/her under the bus because of that. You told me that my credibility is in doubt because I will not identify this person, even though I have provided a word for word chat log?
“a challenge to the mods” is an interesting idea. I wonder if some of the users will make a list of things we could put into this.
I appreciate the candid thoughts from everyone on how they see things, even if some things are and some are not accurate, it is still important for me to understand how others see things.
“does still reflect the mods. Your interactions here should be professional sounding as well, … Some of you come across very professional sounding … Others, well, they come across as less professional, more hot headed”
– yes indeed, this is an issue that should likely be addressed with all the mods, over the years I have tried to alleviate some of these issues on a case by case issue, a few times I have had to remove comments from some of the previous mods.. it’s a sticky situation though, as part of me wants to allow total open honest replies from mods because they are users too, and they have a personal stake in what is said or replied – but then I also have to be concerned about others reading statements and thinking that those kind of replies are the normal tone that all the mods use with the user.. so it’s a dilemma, and something that should really get some official guidelines posted for all it seems.
I remember one of our mods, I think in around 2010 could not wait to resign from modding just so they could open up honestly about some issues with some of the users at the time – lol. It is a tough spot to be in a moderator. There are the regular rules, and then pages of more rules, some friends become not so friendly, the trolls become a burden, and there is extra responsibility all the way around… then you have this annoying admin who does not know when to stop talking and demands all kinds of things..
anyhow – sounds like we are all on the same page with what we want, (fairness, professionalism, consistency) and from what I gather at the moment is that some things have been held back from some discussions the past few months that are coming out now, regs and mods alike.. so this is good to get things out, re-assess and make things better in the future.
I will sign up for a mod challenge.
Oh, how many regs ever signed up for the original regs challenge? Funny how that worked out. yeah, I am very frustrated.
But, I will sign up for a mod challenge.
Sure would be surprised to see ANY users sign up for ANY form of a challenge.
My guess is about 50% of the regs will read the challenge to the regs.. of that 50% will change how they interact in the open room for a good while, some will change for a short while..
A challenge for the mods is excellent, and if the users here post some (more) suggestions for such, I bet that most of them are actually a re-hash of what we already have agreed to in the mods policy pages – so it will more than likely server as a reminder for us more than anything else – which is great! It may actually add to some public transparency of some things that are already understood behind our mods password protected procedures.. So I look forward to furthering these things.
Also looking forward to crafting the challenge to the noobs, which is likely how we will see it, but it will probably be titled something like “how to score more action in the chat rooms for new visitors” – as way to get them to read (And maybe watch a video) – of some of the rules / expected etiquette.
Lots of good things evolving around here, glad we are getting more people involved in these discussions.
I’m up for any challenge if you’d like to try us again. I missed the other one by at least a year but I’ve read it, I like it, I agree with it and I think I do pretty much what it asks. I’ll also contribute to the mod challenge list if you’d like nash.
Heya folks,
First of all do mods make mistakes? Of course we do we are only human and I know I have made my fair share.
Some points:
I would welcome a challenge to the mods.
I agree that a mod answering on blog pages should keep it professional as we are representing the site in these matters and feelings if any should be kept away.
I have no trouble answering any questions on the site regarding my modding but I do ask that it is in pm and not the open room.
Jess and Lick as you have both asked on matters regarding pushing rules and what constructs it, it can be talking banned subjects like religion, posting almost full sentences in all caps, abusing other users on the site, or when someone offers cam and a reg then says to a mod want to cam as in a joke without realising that person who asks sees he is informed not to ask then a reg thinks it’s joking and if warned would be surprised, you would be surprised how many pm’s I get a week complaining on that.
I won’t comment on the Skip kick as 1) I was not there and 2)it does not involve me.
All I ask for is two things
1)that as a mod I will try very best to be professional in all matters (I will even stop sneaking in the lobby kitchen, hell I will even stop calling Biker “Beiberdad”) I also hope that the regs will also ease of on the pushing of rules.
2) That we please all have fun on site, time is too short for drama.
Anyway just some thoughts and hopefully it made sense from my tired brain (1am here and I am cream crackered).
Mikey.
Thumbs up Mikey! Where is that damned like button plugin I was testing? hmmm
‘
Glad to see some examples posted of some of the things that have been troubling us lately. I have not had a chance to sort through some of the chat log examples I have been sent to offer more specific guidance in this regard.
I may need a new contact rule that says when sending a chat log, I need both the original chat log and an edited version that either removes the stuff that is not relevant to the situation, or at least highlights / bolds the stuff I need to see. This new rules list is getting longer and longer… – LOL
so, to answer your statement, nash, this conversation did NOT occur in the main chat; I completely understand and respect your rules relating to drama avoidance; and I agree that challenging the moderators in public forum is completely destructive, rather than constructive. You posted about how this rule adjustment, and the warnings involved are really about love and respect for the regular chat users, and I must say…I was extended an olive branch…in no way were the moderators required to inform me that my behavior had become an issue, I could have been banned and done with. I appreciate the fact that I was approached as an adult, and taken aside, and for the most part my conversations with the mods have been lovely and positive and wonderful. I was encouraged by tex to speak with the other moderators, and I did so. My initial intent was to get to the bottom of whatever issues I have been causing in chat, and although I feel like I was given very few answers, I think that I did hear what I needed to hear
vajess hey Curare, do you have a moment to spare?
Curare (f)™: Sure. What’s up?
vajess well, i was hoping i could speak to you, i have spoken to quite a few mods so far….but basically i was told that i was brought up during a mod meeting
vajess as a problematic user
Curare (f)™: Ahhh….yes. When Tex asked me about it on Sunday, I told him we’d already spoken about the issue we had, so there was no need.
vajess and i am just hoping to nip it in the bud….so if you can fill me in on anything that i have done that is disrespectful or out of line?
vajess well, i am wondering if there is anything else i have done
Curare (f)™: We are hoping that too, dearie. *chuckles* But yes, I’ll let you know.
CougarTamer#7 has been kicked by (F)ine Wine.
vajess well, thank you C, you’re help is always appreciated; as i said, i have spoken to several mods, and i really don’t want to cause any problems, so if there are any issues please do let me know
Curare (f)™: You saw Tex’s PSA. That’s how we’re handling it.
vajess i did indeed, and he spoke to me individually as well, i have been trying to get a bit of clarification though
Curare (f)™: Some stuff has gotten out of hand, and I know he told you about what to be careful of. I really don’t have any more to add, other than what we discussed before.
Curare (f)™: I’m pretty easy. As you know, I will give every opportunity to change the tide in a more positive way. But if the issue continues…outta da pool you go. But we already have that understanding, you and I.
Curare (f)™: YOU know when you’re pushing the rules, darlin’. You’re not a dummy. So…don’t.
There is some strange sort of profundity in his statement, YOU aren’t an idiot, and you know very well what you are doing. And this is very true; I feel as if I have been looking for answers that I will never really find. To do my part, I am willing to take responsibility for what I say and how I behave. I am more than willing to make a conscious effort to try to be more mindful of the rules, but this is all I can do, period. I need to be met half way… you challenge the regs? I challenge the mods…
As much support as I received from the moderators, unfortunately, my discussions have brought some things into light that are plainly disturbing and disappointing and, honestly. FUCKING laughable. Ultimately, all of the rules you have make sense, if you keep the end game in mind, but I feel as if the end game has become secondary here.
The issue of objectivity has obviously been broached, in so many words, I was told to watch out for what I say on the mod complaints/blog; that while retribution was technically against the rules, if a mod really wanted to come up with a reason to ban me, they could do so. I understand that policies which are open to discretion and interpretation exist for a reason, but they also leave a window open for abuse on the part of the moderators; and while I believe that the moderators are for the most part logical and objective, hearing mods themselves question this objectivity leaves me feeling uneasy.
I was also told in so many words, and yes I have the chat logs, that I am part of a bigger problem; that ultimately, at this point I can and will be held responsible for the behavior of other users….i don’t even know what to do with that.
I aslo find this quite laughable…the regs being held responsible for whatever constitutes rule pushing; I am still unclear on whatever the fuck that means, for the record….but I have seen mods themselves push the same rules, and brush it off as a joke. Post away, Anonymous, post away, I know you have so much more. I have seen mods discuss politics; I have seen them make religious jokes; I have seen them broach the issue of race; I have seen mods MOCK new users and critique their ability to smash it; I have seen mods call out pm’ers….you want to hold us accountable; that is fine; that is fair; that is justifiable…hold yourselves accountable too
17:20 MOD I guess it has to do with whatever was going on in the mod complaint page
17:34 MOD yeah. I’m not too sure what the problem is either
either someone is blaming you for something you didn’t do or a mod just doesn’t like you for whatever reason
17:32 MOD I personally think some of them are a bit power hungry for some reason, and most happen to be older. so maybe that has something to do with it
17:42 vajess: even so, the mods aren’t supposed to be able to take any action over stuff that is said on mod complaints
» that’s why the page exists
17:43 MOD yeah, which is what nash was saying when he came on
» my guess is FW or whoever originally had the complaint didn’t like it
17:38 MOD my only guess would be if someone thought you were asking about someone being kicked and they didn’t take it to well
» I know most don’t like that, but I dont’ see why you would get a final warning if that’s the case
a mod just doesn’t like you for whatever reason
17:49 MOD: well I think some of these older women like FW tend to abuse there power a bit and kick people pretty quickly. my guess is one of them started it
I never knew there was a problem with you until today so I’m just as surprised
Rant on…..
I want to make one thing very clear from the start of this post. I have not yet finished all the reading of Nash’s above post. But, I want to chime in on one or two things right now.
ANY post to the mod complaints page is COMPLETELY off limits to any retaliation of any kind from the mods. This is an area where we all can air disagreements and seek clarity. I have been a big topic of conversation in the distant past wrt the mod complaints page. I tend to read what is posted and try respond with as much neutrality as I can. I will readily admit I am not perfect. However, I do try to keep the mod complaints page to the mod complaints page and not in the room. However, there are times when that is not possible. An example would be that a discussion bleeds over into the room in real time. If a user is told that such and such behavior is unacceptable in the mod complaints page AND that user persists with that behavior in the room, then the user is held accountable in the room.
Another thing I want to make clear here is that when regs push or abuse the rules in the room, they create far more problems for the mods than just with themselves and the behavior in question. Other, lesser known or new folks get the idea that the behavior is ok which makes for far more work on the part of the mods. You all have NO idea what a burden this can become to the mods. Try leaving your show enter/exits on, accepting ALL PMs, not using the block feature, having to keep track of all that is going on, watching for minors, getting dragged into he said, she said conversations, and refereeing all disagreements during a few hours a day and tell me how much you like that load.
All we are asking is that everyone back away from pushing up against the rules, cease with violating the rules and let everyone get back to enjoying the room as it can be. I do know for a fact that many regs love to push and break the rules when they think no mod is around. I regularly login with a name NO ONE knows and I just watch and note what is going on, who enjoys pushing or breaking the rules, and those that even “brag” about it. Do I have chat logs of such behavior? yes, I do. Will I post those? No, I won’t. I am too busy for that much work. But, I do know EVERYONE has broken the rules over time. Hell, I have. I have put myself on call to be more aware of my behavior, both as a user and as a mod. Is it unreasonable to ask the same of the other users and mods?
One last thing. Can we ALL apply a little common sense to the rules? There have been MANY times I let a slight slide. Sometimes it is just a simple mistake. I will rarely get all knotted up over those kind of things. However, I will make a note of the behavior and watch that individual more closely and then step if I deem it is needed. Fine’s discussion about Lent is a perfect case in point of this. I would have not stepped in at all. I tend to take things in context and then decide whether further action is needed. But, when a reg uses all caps EXCEPT for one word, well, that is plain snide and childish behavior. PERIOD. And, yes, I have seen just that kind oif behavior in the recent past.
Rant off
that was a chat log, not a rant
hahaha oh I get it, rant on, rant off; i’m a tard
Yeap, a classic example of “just can’t wait to lash out” before full understanding.
ok, let’s all count to 10, because I never meant to post with any animosity, and I hope you don’t see it that way
I understand many are frustrated with some these issues, and I think everyone actually has good reasons to be; the users and mods both. As with all things textually posted and read – there are going to be things that sound one way to one person and read another way by someone else. When things get to sounding mean or angry by anyone, I myself realize that just because it sounds that way on my first read, does not mean that full on screaming rage was intended..
In the end, some users may be upset, some may be angry. Some of the mods are likely frustrated with so many different view points, but most of this is just a lack of clear communication… Some of the users need more information, and some of the mods are likely having a hard time explaining things, especially given there are some restrictions on what they can say and how they should say it 😉 So, apologies to the mods, and apologies to the users.. we will find a way to hash all this out, and during this process we will all understand things better.